Down to Business

Now that we've got the obligatory pleasantries out of the way, let's get started.

First order of business: Fouls and Physicality in Basketball

Since the NBA is the league with the most attention paid to it right now (no real apologies to the NHL, you did it to yourself), let's talk about an issue that has gotten some attention in the basketball blogosphere (namely ESPN.com's The Sports Guy, a Blogopolis fav) - fighting, fouling and physicality in basketball.

The Sports Guy, Bill Simmons, recently wrote an article in ESPN The Magazine about how the NBA should take a cue from the NHL about fighting. One of my roommate's biggest complaints about basketball hits on this issue in that it is the natural inclination of big, strong men to foul and be physical, yet the current rules try to inhibit those instinctual actions. I recently had a conversation with said roommate (who will forever be part of the fabric of the Sports Blogopolis, namely as "The Consultant Who Knew Too Little") - please find our debate below:

(This discussion began with an excerpt from an article in ESPN The Magazine (The Sports Guy - "I love this game! (Surprise -- I'm talking about the NHL.)", Simmons, Bill)

G-Pops

The article is about how hockey is back because of fighting, and the NBA can learn from it. This is exactly what you have been saying all along:

"Know what else helped [hockey return to semi-relevantness in the American sports world]? Our country swung back toward the traits that make hockey hum. In the 1990s, we made great strides in the areas of racial equality, gender discrimination, gay rights, animal abuse, domestic violence, recycling, safe sex, drunken driving, name it. Americans grew more sophisticated and socially engaged. But we became undeniably uptight in the process. Something as innocent as a hockey fight suddenly became a bad example for the children. And no handshake line could undo the "damage."
Mercifully, we have swung the other way in the new millennium. The UFC made fighting profitable and acceptable. The Internet made it seem okay to attack anyone with words and hide behind the cloak of anonymity. Anyone could steal content -- songs, jokes, highlights -- and post it online, and everything was fine. Female celebs used sexuality to advance careers; soon teens were grinding on shows like Gossip Girl and nobody cared. Reality TV had no rules at all -- you couldn't do anything they wouldn't show.
Call it a lawlessness of sorts. I'm not defending it, just pointing it out. It's been great for hockey -- and terrible for basketball. The NBA suddenly seems like one of those late-1960s dads freaking out because his son has returned from college with long hair. "Wait, you can't shove him after the whistle like that! This game might get competitive! Flagrant-2!" Robbed of the ability to police one another, today's NBA players have no idea how to act when an opponent angers them. It's like watching two young siblings play -- wrestling unsuccessfully because Mom keeps screaming hysterically, "Careful! Careful! Careful!"
Can you play a fluid sport like basketball at its highest level without bodies banging, penetrating players getting clobbered and the occasional testiness? Of course you can't. The NBA pretends you can, though, putting the playoffs in the hands of (mostly incompetent) refs who overreact to each shove and stare. It drives me crazy."

The Consultant

Totally true. It’s a naturally aggressive game and anything that the league does to work against this will hurt the game. I’m obviously no pro, but I would definitely be more interested in watching it if they let the players play the game.

G-Pops

I think the league is worried about the players getting out of control, and either having another Kermit Washington incident (at about the 1:50 mark on youTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgqUZ1IAA_8&feature=PlayList&p=DA37CCDFE6D29FF3&index=0&playnext=1) or something similar to when Ron Artest went in the stands.

There are big differences between hockey and basketball:
(1) There is a general understanding, a fight etiquette if you will, in hockey, with almost exclusively 1-on-1 fighting and the refs there to immediately break it up, whereas in basketball usually because of the players' backgrounds it turns into a street fight with errant haymakers thrown all over the place;
(2) hockey separates itself from the fans with the boards, but in basketball quite often fans and members of the media are part of the action;
(3) the players are limited in their fighting ability anyway because of skates and pads and other gear, whereas in basketball you are uninhibited and can make contact with a guy pretty much anywhere; and
(4) basketball players are even bigger than hockey players - for example, everyone talks about Zdeno Chara, a 6'9" defenseman for the Bruins, and how intimidating and how huge a force he is because of his size - the average player in the NBA is almost that tall, what if you are dealing with 2,3 or 4 guys that size, how do you break that up with 3 typically septuagenerian referees who are half their size?

I think the solution the NBA needs to realize is to get larger referees who can actually break up potential fights. There's a classic video of a New York-Miami fight from the late 90s when the Knicks coach tries to hold back his 7-footer by holding onto his leg, as the guy drags him along. In the new NBA, this will be no more - the new refs will have to go through strength and agility tests, and then be required to maintain that will training and yearly physicals. In UFC and other extreme contact sports, as the combatants get bigger, so do the referees. I think the NBA realizes that its players are garguntuan, modern-day giants amongst us, and get some referees that can compare physically. In turn, this also helps the ability of the referees to make calls when it won't be 70 year old eyes trying to determine which way the foul goes on a bang-bang play.

I still will watch the NBA regardless of whether they go through with this.

The Consultant -

Haymakers?!? That’s a stretch. Besides that Kermit Washington punch any one I’ve even seen thrown is more of a bitch slap than a punch (Carmelo Anthony case in point.)

Your points make sense, and you clearly know more about this than I. Bigger refs would help, but by no means am I arguing for fights. What bothers me is a whistle for an "actual" or "timely" slap on the wrist when a player takes a shot. When you drive the lane contact HAS to happen otherwise it’s way too easy – think women’s lacrosse – anyone with the guts to drive the lane will either make a basket or draw a foul (Lebron.)

(1) Fights will happen either way, etiquette would develop
(2) Good point
(3) Hockey players typically fight with gloves off punching for the face, not really sure why that is that much different than what could happen in basketball
(4) More aggressive style will call for faster, more compact players, I would hypothesize that the size would come down, or shift to closer to a football style with bigger players in certain positions

Regardless it’s not going to change, but it’s interesting to think about

G-Pops

Yes, I can see Carmelo now, running backwards basically before the punch is even thrown. But I know you've seen the footage from the Artest fiasco. Jermaine O'Neal. Stephen Jackson. Simply laying out normal human beings left and right. Those were haymakers. The announcers that night were even calling them that.

The key is not necessarily haymakers or not, but the public's perception of the fight, and that in basketball, those street fights could frighten people because they look and feel out of control, and they are scared something major might happen. Everyone in hockey knows eventually its going to stop and then the two guys will skate off to the box for 5 minutes.

My point around hockey gear, especially the aspect of skates, is that you can't get a running start, you don't have your own two feet to really generate a lot of force, plus hockey fights are usually each guy holding the others sweater neck with one hand, and rarely do they do much damage before the refs jump in. This is the weakest of my points, and with limited experience in skates, could be somewhat unfounded.

Your thoughts Wise Guy?